Interview with Daniel Humm

oven range and stove with steaming pots and pans

Chef Daniel Humm is the executive chef of Eleven Madison Park, which earned four stars from the New York Times in August 2009. He arrived at the restaurant in 2006, after spending three years as executive chef of Campton Place in San Francisco, where he garnered four stars from the San Francisco Chronicle and was one of Food & Wine鈥檚 Best New Chefs of 2005.

He quickly elevated Eleven Madison Park to a three-star restaurant and became a Grand Chef Relais & Ch芒teaux. The James Beard Foundation twice nominated him for a rising star chef award while he was at Campton Place, and once while at Eleven Madison Park. Chef Humm earned his first Michelin star in his late teens, as executive chef of Gasthaus zum Gupf in his native Switzerland, after working at the acclaimed Le Pont de Brent. The Main Course sat down with him in his grand dining room.

You had four stars at Campton Place in San Francisco. What does it mean for you to have four stars in New York?

New York is the big league. It was hard to leave a four-star chef position to come here and run a two-star restaurant. When we finally got it back, I definitely was relieved. The reason to come to New York was that there are always people who doubt that you鈥檙e really that good. When we got four stars in San Francisco, a lot of people said, 鈥極h, San Francisco is so small. It鈥檚 not New York.鈥 In my head I said, well, let me show you. New York is the biggest food city in the world, I think, next to Paris. It is such an important city for chefs. So if you can make it here, a lot of people will recognize you on a national and even international scale.

What do you do once you have four stars?

Four stars is not just something you get. It鈥檚 not like winning a gold medal, where you have it to keep. It鈥檚 a real commitment; it really just begins when you get four stars. You鈥檝e got to push really hard to maintain that level. If we are at the same level next time we get reviewed, in four or five years, we鈥檙e not going to get the four stars again. Four stars means that you鈥檝e always got to be at the top, and you鈥檝e constantly got to rise to the top because you鈥檙e not just going to stay there. The top becomes higher also. It鈥檚 exciting to be recognized, but it鈥檚 a big commitment. So I really don鈥檛 think about it too much. I just pursue that. I want to work in a place where everybody鈥檚 on the same page and everybody wants to have that. That鈥檚 really it.

When you were first reviewed here, you got three stars. What has changed, if anything, in the way you cook or in the restaurant?

The restaurant has kept on evolving. And it still does. Even since the review, I think we鈥檝e gotten better in certain areas. We鈥檙e just constantly improving. Getting three stars was great for us. But we still changed so many things. We almost remodeled the entire restaurant. We started doing more tableside service. We added just a lot of layers to the service and to how we do things.

And your cooking?

The cooking is always evolving. Every year you have the same ingredients, but every year you want to add something new or do things in a different way. It鈥檚 constantly growing. One thing that鈥檚 very important for me now more than ever, is less is more. We really get the best quality ingredients that we can get our hands on, and then not do too much with them.

We let the ingredients shine. If there are few things on a plate, you really think about every ingredient. Does it need to be there? Does it make the dish better if it鈥檚 there? If the answer is yes, then leave it. If the answer is no, take it away. If the answer is not sure, take it away. Every ingredient needs to be impactful on the dish. I think that is the cuisine of my future; that is what I want to get much more focused on, strip it down. Don鈥檛 do unnecessary things just to show off, like chefs sometimes do. How complicated can a dish be? It鈥檚 not about that. It鈥檚 not about to show off or how many different techniques I can do on one plate. For me, it鈥檚 about the ingredients and how I can best showcase them.

You鈥檙e interested in technology as well, right?

Yes, I am. But when I use technology, I try to use it in a way that is very subtle. We use it in a way where people don鈥檛 realize it鈥檚 there. A lot of these techniques, they鈥檙e not to show off; they are to make things better. And if they do make things better, then do it. If you know molecular gastronomy, you might see a few things; if you don鈥檛 know it, in my opinion, you should enjoy the food just as much, and you shouldn鈥檛 think that anything is weird or different. I think that鈥檚 when it鈥檚 done best.

You say less is more. Is that how you would define your culinary philosophy?

I would define it as just really focusing on ingredients. Don鈥檛 overdo it. I sometimes say in the kitchen that if it鈥檚 too hard to make it nice, it鈥檚 not nice. If it鈥檚 too hard, then don鈥檛 do it. Sometimes we come up with dishes that are great but then are so hard to pull off 鈥搃t鈥檚 not the harder it is to pull off the dish, the better it is. That鈥檚 just not the case. Everything that we do is labor intensive, but we do it in a way that is manageable and that is maybe done before service. Then when it comes to service, it鈥檚 just something that鈥檚 very consistent and something that鈥檚 seasoned properly. There aren鈥檛 ten different things on the plate, each one seasoned and cooked a little differently. I think you鈥檙e missing the point if you do that.

Were you thinking that way 10 years ago, or is that you becoming more experienced?

More experienced and more confident I think. In the beginning, you want to prove yourself, you want to show all the techniques you learned, and you want to show that in one meal. As you get more experience and more confidence, you realize that you don鈥檛 need to do that.

How are you as a teacher in the kitchen?
I try to talk to the cooks a lot. Showing them techniques is one thing, and I do that, too. But I talk to them about the philosophy of cooking. I hope to leave an impression on them. One of the biggest mistakes a lot of young chefs make, in my opinion, is to jump around too much. They spend six months in one place, six months in another, and then their r茅sum茅 shows that they worked there and there and there.

Yes, they worked there six months, but they didn鈥檛 really understand the philosophy of any of those people. It鈥檚 not seeing all these different dishes from all these different chefs that鈥檚 going to make you a great chef; it鈥檚 having a philosophy and really pursuing it, because you can鈥檛 be everybody. I admire many chefs and love things that they do, but I can鈥檛 be them. I鈥檝e got to be me. That鈥檚 important for young cooks to realize, to listen to their own voice. And of course, learn the techniques. But then as far as creativity goes, they should listen to their own voice and see what they want to do.

How long do you suggest that someone stay in your kitchen, for example?

Three years is a good time. In the beginning we had a lot of turnover because it was a very different restaurant. For the last three years, we have had very little turnover.

How would you describe your kitchen to someone interested in working in it?

It鈥檚 a classic setup of a French kitchen. It has all of the classic stations, like saucier and garde manger. Cooks here really learn how to cook. They learn how to braise, they learn how to poach, they learn how to do many of these important techniques. No matter what style of food you鈥檙e going to call your own as a chef, you don鈥檛 get around if you don鈥檛 know how to poach a fish鈥攏o matter what flavor you want to serve it with.

You鈥檝e got to learn the fundamentals of cooking. I try to still do a lot of those because we are chefs. People say we鈥檙e artists, which I think is true to a certain degree, but it鈥檚 about the craft and repetition鈥攚e鈥檙e repeating a lot of the same things on a daily basis. That鈥檚 what cooking is. You don鈥檛 get around that. On many days I do the same things, and on every station it鈥檚 like that. Every station has its own routines: making the sauce, cutting the vegetables, butchering the fish. It doesn鈥檛 really change too much.

Somebody who is young in this career really needs to think about that, because if you鈥檙e not excited about repeating your tasks, you鈥檙e in the wrong business. We sometimes have people who work for three weeks at a station and then they鈥檝e done everything once and say, 鈥極kay, chef, I want to work at another station because I鈥檝e seen this now.鈥 Well, that鈥檚 right; you鈥檙e going to see everything you learn many more times in your life. If you don鈥檛 like that, it鈥檚 a real problem. Working in a kitchen is all about repetition.

Is that what for you makes it craft and not art?

Yes.

As an executive chef, you鈥檙e in a creative director role, in a sense. Do you still have that routine yourself?

Yes, absolutely. For me it鈥檚 very important, because it keeps me connected, as I do so many things beyond cooking, like interviews and events, now. I got into this because I love to cook.

Why did you become a chef?

I love the environment of a kitchen. I grew up with great food. My mom still cooks two meals a day for everybody who鈥檚 at home. At my parents鈥 house the action is always in the kitchen. That鈥檚 the place where you want to be. When I go home, I spend more time in the kitchen than anywhere, not just cooking but sitting, while someone else might be cooking. I worked in restaurants during school, during the holiday breaks, and I just knew that it was for me. I knew that I loved it.

What does your Swiss heritage bring to your cooking?

Switzerland doesn鈥檛 really change that much. It is not really affected by everything that鈥檚 going on in the world, by how styles have changed so much. They don鈥檛 really care about any of that. I actually think that鈥檚 a really great thing, because they just stay true to what they have in the country, to what they have been doing for so long. In the long run, they don鈥檛 really go with the trends.

Cuisine is very fashionable; styles, techniques, and flavors change. For two years something is the coolest thing in the world and every chef does it, and then two years later nobody wants to do it anymore and then something new comes. In Switzerland they do their thing. It鈥檚 interesting that even in countries where cooking is more fashionable, like Spain, I believe that at the end of the day they still come back to the basics, to tradition.

Does that mean you鈥檙e more grounded in tradition than fashion?

Definitely, yes.

Do you feel that pull against change in your own style?

I like to be very open as far as seeing what鈥檚 out there, what other people do, and take in as much influence in as I can. But at the end of the day, I鈥檓 more of a traditionalist. It takes a lot for me to really change direction. But I do at least try to hear as much; in Switzerland they don鈥檛 even want to hear it.

Why did you come to the US?

I wanted to learn English. I was only 24 years old when I came to San Francisco to be the chef of Campton Place. When I started, I realized that this was a much bigger field than I thought. And so I just gave my best to succeed. The offer fell in my lap. I never really wanted to leave Switzerland. Their hotel was approaching me, and they gave me a good offer to come. And so I said why not. I thought it would be for a year or two.

And now you鈥檝e changed cities, you got married, you鈥檝e got four stars. Are you here for good?

Yes. I love New York. You never know what happens in the future, but I really love New York.

Could you go back to being a chef in Switzerland at this point?

I wouldn鈥檛 want to. Two years ago, the Dolder Grand Hotel in Zurich, which was a very anticipated opening, one of the biggest openings in Europe ever鈥擨 think they spent $800 million to renovate鈥攖ried pretty hard to get me to be the chef there. That was probably the biggest opportunity to ever go back there to be a chef, and I didn鈥檛 want to do it. So I don鈥檛 know why I would now.

You鈥檙e 32, but you鈥檝e been doing cooking for 19 years. Do you ever think that at 40 you might say, 鈥楾hat鈥檚 it, I鈥檓 going to be a travel agent鈥?

No. I love it. I love this business.

Are you actually cooking every day?

Yes, six days a week, lunch and dinner. Sometimes if I have a lot of stuff going on, I鈥檓 going to spend some time in the office because there is office work that needs to be done. And sometimes I might not work lunch in the kitchen. But most of the time I鈥檓 here in the kitchen. I want to be here. I feel that there is nowhere I鈥檓 more needed than here.

This is a big operation. What say do you have over the restaurant鈥檚 running?

The restaurant is run by Will [Guidara], who is the general manager, and by me. The two of us make any decision there is. Danny [Meyer] has been really hands-off, because that鈥檚 the type of leaders we are. We appreciate because we wouldn鈥檛 want to work in a place where we need to ask our boss for everything.

It wouldn鈥檛 work. Danny is very good in knowing that if he tells us what to do, we鈥檙e not going to be here very long. He helps with big decisions. We want to get him involved because he鈥檚 been doing this for a long time, and his opinion is really great. But we actually picked these pillows, and we actually custom-designed these chairs. We had a hand in creating everything you see here.

What are some of the benefits of being part of an operation like Union Square Hospitality Group?

The talent that works in this company is incredible. All the chefs are on a pretty high level, same with the GMs. To work in the same company, with them, is very inspiring.

Eleven Madison Park is 11 years old. How do you see it evolving in the next decade?

I think that the restaurant deserves to be one of the top restaurants in the world. We started off well, and we now have four stars. That kind of puts us in the top league. But I hope that we can really keep growing. Over time, we will become bigger. If something is there for a long time on a very high level, it becomes a bigger name naturally鈥攍ike Le Bernardin. So I hope we can establish ourselves to be a name just as big.

What do you look for in a prospective cook?

I look for somebody who can commit to certain amounts of time, like two or three years. I definitely check that they didn鈥檛 jump around so much. I don鈥檛 really care as much about the name of the places where they鈥檝e worked. Yes, if somebody worked two years at Per Se, two years at Jean Georges, and two years at Daniel, yes, of course, that鈥檚 great. But you鈥檙e not going to get these r茅sum茅s very often. Honestly, the quality of the r茅sum茅s I see is very poor. It鈥檚 frightening. Out of 100 r茅sum茅s, we have one that鈥檚 good for us. And that one doesn鈥檛 have all these top restaurants in there. That one maybe has a good, solid restaurant where they spent two or three years. That for me becomes a good r茅sum茅.

It sounds like a commitment is really what you are looking for.

That鈥檚 the biggest thing. Then I want to meet the person. I want to talk to him and see if they fit with our team, if their personality is a match. I look for people skills, too: Are they humble? Are they respectful? Are they friendly? It matters to me because I spend all day here. I want to surround myself with nice people.

Humble, respectful, and friendly鈥攁re those characteristics of yours as well then?

That鈥檚 what I try to be. No matter what success you might have or what you might have seen already, you should approach everything in a humble way.

If you鈥檝e had a really bad day, what鈥檚 the negative trait of character that you might demonstrate in the kitchen?

I yell sometimes. It鈥檚 not really about having a good or a bad day. What makes me upset is if somebody makes a mistake, knows that they made a mistake, and tries to hide it. That is against everybody who works here. It鈥檚 not against me鈥攊t鈥檚 against everything we do. We have 150 people working in the restaurant. Most of them pour their hearts into this place. We care so much. If somebody makes a mistake and tries to hide it and it ends up or would end up on a table, then that really, really makes me upset. If somebody makes a mistake, that鈥檚 fine. They just say, 鈥業 made a mistake; what can we do?鈥 There are always solutions, and everybody makes mistakes. But you need to realize when you make a mistake, then be mature enough to stand up and say it.

What鈥檚 a word of advice you would give someone looking to get into cooking today?

The only reason why you should get into it is because you love cooking. It鈥檚 not because you want to become a famous chef; it鈥檚 not because you want to hang out with chefs; it鈥檚 not because you want to be part of the restaurant industry. The only reason needs to be that you love to cook, love the craft of cooking. If that鈥檚 the case, then you should do it, because it can open so many doors. Even if in 20 years you鈥檙e still a line cook, at least you love to cook, so you鈥檙e going to be happy in this business no matter what. Don鈥檛 plan your chef career before you love to cook.

Do you see that as a big issue? It seems to be a common complaint among chefs.

It鈥檚 all over. [Aspiring cooks] don鈥檛 know what the job entails. If they don鈥檛 know that, then I don鈥檛 think they really like to cook. They want to be chefs and have all the success that a chef can have, but they don鈥檛 love to cook. Being on the Food Network is a different career. I don鈥檛 really know about that too much, but that鈥檚 a different talent; that鈥檚 a different type of career.

If you want to be a successful chef, like Thomas Keller, like Daniel Boulud鈥攖hey all love to cook, guaranteed. They love to cook, they鈥檝e mastered it, and they鈥檙e really good at it. And then they have other talents, too; that鈥檚 why they are as big as they are. But the first one is cooking. If it doesn鈥檛 come out of that, it鈥檚 not going to work.

These other talents, are they talents that you had when you started your career or talents that you鈥檝e developed as you went along?

I think that I developed them as I went along. You鈥檝e got to be a person whom people like. You鈥檝e got to be a person who is really inspiring because you need to inspire your team. You鈥檝e got to have a really clear vision, and you need to have the endurance and the drive to really pursue that one vision. You鈥檝e got to be smart鈥攖here are so many choices you need to make. You鈥檝e got to be smart about your career, too. There is always a better job that pays more money, at any level that you are. You鈥檝e got to be smart and say, well, it may be better just for right now, but is this going to be better for me five years from now? There is a lot of temptation in this business, and you鈥檝e got to be strong enough to not fall for it too much.